Wednesday, August 12, 2009

Mr. Harold Camping vs. Dr. James White: Clash of Theological Titans

Well, I know what you are all thinking: "Jimmy Fungus, what the hell is this entry about? Who the hell are Harold Camping and Dr. James White?" Ok, well, just calm down because I am going to tell you.





Harold Camping is one of the most famous Bible teachers in the world. He is President and General Manager of Family Radio which can be heard at http://www.familyradio.com/ and is also the host of the Open Forum radio program. He is also famous because he says, "Thank you for calling and sharing, now may we take our next caller please..." When Harold Camping was a naive young man of 72 (or something like that) he wrote a book called "1994" predicting the end of the world. Well, if you haven't heard, Harold Camping screwed up, because the world did not end in 1994. But that's ok, everyone makes mistakes. (Oh come on, like you have never predicited the end of the world, and got it wrong...don't be so judgmental.) To understand more about who Harold Camping is and what the hell he is all about, please see the following video posted by John and Michelle Dougher at youtube. John and Michelle thought it would be a good "idear" to post this video at youtube, and I would have to say, they were certainly right about that. Here it is:













OH GOD WHY?





OH GOD WHY?


...for some unknown reason John and Michelle Dougher took down their wonderful Harold Camping video (dammit), but eh..here is another video of the Harold Camping program...that will have to do.







Well, ok now...on with our story...



Dr. James R. White thinks that Harold Camping is a big jerk, because Harold Camping preaches that the "church age" is over, which led Dr. White to author the book Dangerous Airwaves: Harold Camping Refuted and Christ's Church Defended. Dr. James White is a professional pastor, and director of Alpha and Omega ministries which you can learn more about at www.aomin.org/ . He is not famous or anything, but he does look a lot like former Minnesota governor Jesse "the Body" Ventura.


Jesse Ventura









Recently, Governor Ventura, err, I mean Dr. James White, and Mr. Harold Camping met in a debate, in which they did battle over Harold Camping's very controversial teachings about the end of the "church age", and the end of the world. (Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Now, Mr. Harold Camping says the world will not end in the year 1994, but in May something, 2011. So be sure not to schedule any family picnics on that day.) This very violent and fiery debate can be heard at the Iron Sharpens Iron blog here:

Harold Camping Debates Dr. James White (Part One)

and here:

Harold Camping Debates Dr. James White (Part Two)

It is a very long debate between Dr. James R. White, and Mr. Harold Camping, so I thought it might be helpful if I tried to summarize it for you guys. So here is a summary...now, keep in mind I have taken some rather gross liberties with what was actually said, in favor of conciseness:


Moderator: Mr. Harold Camping, your opening statement please.

Mr. Harold Camping: BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

Moderator: Dr. James R. White, your response.

Dr. James White: Harold Camping, you are a big jerk. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

Moderator: Mr. Camping, your rebuttal.

Mr. Harold Camping: No, I'm not. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH


And it went on like this, for about 2 hours. Then towards the final hour of Part 2 of the debate, Dr. James White got very angry because Harold Camping was just ignoring him, and would not admit he was wrong about anything. Dr. White apparently had thought Harold Camping, at some point was going to say, "Geez. You're right. I am a really big, dumb jerk." Unfortunately for Dr. James R. White, this did not happen. Well, I hope Dr. White does not get too depressed about this.

So ended this mighty clash of theological giants, and just another day in the history of the blogosphere had been written. Thank you for reading this, true believers. Once again, God bless you and thank you for your support.



!!!!!!MUST READ FOLLOW UP ARTICLE!!!!!!
BLOG TREK 2009: The Sideshow, Harold Camping vs. Dr James White (the saga continues), & More




24 comments:

  1. Hi,

    I want to start by saying that this post is very funny. "Your're a jerk, blah, blah, blah." "No I'm not, blah, blah, blah."

    I do have to add that Mr. Camping did make some very deep and serious points that require the Holy Spirit to give any listener true understanding.

    I agree with Mr. Camping on virtually everything he teaches. I have spent years listening and scrutinizing his teachings and approach to the Bible.

    The teachings that I infer that I don't agree with actually means I am not totally 100% convinced of their accuracy at this point in time - though not to say they are incorrect.

    For instance, I regularly say that I am presently only 85% convinced that 2011 is the year of the end. Although the more I study it, the more I become convinced that 2011 is, indeed, that very special year.

    I must insist, though, at the very least, there is most certainly some extremely strange "harmonizations" going on in reference to these time lines, etc. pointing to 2011.

    Furthermore, Mr. Camping did not predict the end of the world in 1994. He essentially suggested that we look at this year and make special note all of the Biblical time lines that appear to point to this year - which, by the way, was the first jubilee year after Israel became a nation again (in fulfillment of Biblical prophecy). He essentially wrote COULD this be the year of Christ's return?

    Virtually all of his detractors seem to like to leave out the "?" that was in the book's title. The book's full title was "1994?". They like to say - quite incorrectly, mind you - that Mr. Camping dogmatically insisted that 1994 was the year of the end of the world.

    Mr. Camping wrote in that book that he may not have discovered all of the pertinent Biblical information and that other years could and should also be considered. 2011 happened to be one of those years listed in "1994?".

    Now Mr. Camping fully and dogmatically insists that 2011 is absolutely, 100% without question the year of Christ's return and the end of the world.

    He says that this is so due to the extremely overwhelming amount of Biblical evidence that greatly harmonizes and supports this premise.

    In reference to the debate with Mr. White, and especially in reference to Mr. White's accusations, Mr. Camping didn't even begin to have the time to properly address or explain the Biblical basis of the doctrines Mr. White accused Mr. Camping of doing disservice to.

    The Bible is a complicated book and is not easy to understand. Three minute allotments of time are hardly enough to go into detail of any Biblical doctrine.

    Go to FamilyRadio.com and listen to the audio archives. There are hours of teaching on this site and you can decide whether Mr. Camping is correct by teaching what he teaches or not. Don't be foolish and blindly believe either men simply by their word, or by the fact that there is a "Dr." before their name when they sign a document, etc.

    I am pretty well versed in reference to Mr. Camping's teachings of the Bible, and I regret that Mr.Camping didn't perform a virtual slam dunk that I always use pertaining to the fact that God is 100% responsible for every single aspect of salvation. This includes the very misunderstood fact that God choses or elects His people. And they do not - EVER - choose Him! At least to the point of salvation.

    And no one is able to refuse His calling once chosen. This is called the Doctrine of Election. This doctrine is without question exactly what God teaches throughout the Bible.

    My point being: Virtually all churches that claim the name of Christ will agree with much of what I have written above in reference to salvation, but they always drop the ball and add some type of human work, such as accepting Christ, saying the sinner's prayer, getting baptized in water, etc., as a requirement to being saved.

    This is not taught in the Bible. Nor does God love everyone (see Psalm 5 and 11).

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  2. Thank you, so much for your comment Mr. Matthew J. Brabow. Actually, I do listen to the Open Forum with Harold Camping. Here is a link to the site you are talking about for those who are interested: http://www.familyradio.com/english/connect/audio_archive/forum/

    I am going to do a follow up to this article very soon, and I will address your comment in much more detail. So, stay tuned!

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  3. I so look forward to it!

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  4. P.S. Sorry I spelled your name wrong in my last comment. Whoops.

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  5. Yeah, this post also was very funny.

    Actually, @Grabow@, from what I can tell, Camping is a Calvinist with hyper-Calvinistic tendencies.

    From a historical perspective, hyper-Calvinists have ALWAYS been called heretics.

    (I believe in predestination by the way.)

    "...they always drop the ball and add some type of human work as a requirement for salvation."

    It's funny because reading one of Campings' tracts, "I hope God will save me" I was thinking the same thing about Camping :-)

    He basically redefines "faith" to be "faith + works."

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  6. Yeah, this post also was very funny.

    Actually, @Grabow@, from what I can tell, Camping is a Calvinist with hyper-Calvinistic tendencies.

    From a historical perspective, hyper-Calvinists have ALWAYS been called heretics.

    (I believe in predestination by the way.)

    "...they always drop the ball and add some type of human work as a requirement for salvation."

    It's funny because reading one of Campings' tracts, "I hope God will save me" I was thinking the same thing about Camping :-)

    He basically redefines "faith" to be "faith + works."

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  7. 15 more months until judgment day. On May 21, 2011 the unsaved will be tormented for 5 months and after wards they will be destroyed. So, if you're not saved, now is the time to cry out to God for mercy. If you have questions please visit the latter rain group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Latter_Rain/

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  8. Dr. White is an excellent Bible teacher from what I have heard on this exchange with Mr. Camping.
    Camping never having gone to seminary does not even know what 'grammatical-historical interpretation' is all about, and admitted it, showing himself not to be spiritual nor scholastic.

    He would have been a good instructor in the Alexandrian school centuries ago with Pantaenus, Clement and Origen. They believed in allegorical interpretation to the point where they explained the cardinal Christian truths away into non-existence.

    He should have stayed in 'engineering' where he was trained rather than dismanteling the Christian churches across the globe, thereby doing the Devil's work, inadvertently. Camping is either an apostate [II Timothy 2:17-18} or unsaved with some intellectual idea as to what the Bible means, much like the liberal pastors of our day.

    His aging has given him the idea that he is loftier than the Apostle Paul in his understanding of the Word of God--the Bible. The man can hardly put a sentence together on the air. They should have had a Board of Directors so they could toss this 'false teacher' to the wind. He has been warned by Dallas Seminary professors and other Presbyterian pastor as to his flight from the truth. The clinetelle who call him 'Brother Camping' all have the IQ of eighty or under. Gullible foolish people.

    God tells us that not every one who says, 'Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven' [Matthew 7:21]. Have we not preached and taught in Your Name?

    Rev. Dr. Berrian, Th.D. & Ph.D

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  9. this is a very good and innformative read, dr. james is a very good debator and a scholar. unlike mr. harold which is like a punk.

    anyway.. if you guys want some camping tents

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  10. Il semble que vous soyez un expert dans ce domaine, vos remarques sont tres interessantes, merci.

    - Daniel

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  11. The role of Bible teachers is to teach what they have learned; and teachers and students learn and grow as each day passes. Each human being today possesses knowledge that each did not possess 10 years ago, or 5 years ago, or 1 year ago, etc. We are all learning and growing every day. If a Bible teacher teaches something and it turns out that he was mistaken, this does not mean that he is a “false teacher”. Suppose Mr. Camping had decided not to share what he had learned about 1994 during that time because he was not 100% sure; and suppose Christ had returned in 1994? The people left behind would have wished that someone would have warned them. Just because Christ didn’t return in 1994 as Mr. Camping believed during that time doesn’t mean he’s a false teacher. It only means he didn’t understand all the pieces of the Bible puzzle during that time. He’s still a very good teacher. And ever since 1994, there has been more opportunity to spread the gospel to more people all over the world, which is the most important aspect of this whole thing. If some people “lost their faith” because Christ did not return in 1994, then it reveals that they were not true believers of Jesus Christ. True believers continued to follow Jesus Christ and forgave Mr. Camping’s biblical misunderstandings of that point in time. Mr. Camping is a true servant of God who tries his best to study, learn, and teach to the best of his ability. There are many people who are trying to assassinate Mr. Camping’s character, which is a very ungodly thing to do. A true Christian would never, ever engage in character assassination.

    Side Note: I keep hearing and reading comments from unbelievers saying “if you believe the end is near, stop paying your bills” or “stop paying your mortgage” or “bequeath all your possessions” or “what will you do on May 22, 2011 if Christ did not return.” True believers would never stop paying their bills; that would be stealing, which is a sin. Just because someone is utterly convinced that the end is near does not mean that they should bequeath all their possessions; that’s silly. If it turns out that Christ does not return on May 21, 2011 due to a possible missing piece of the Bible puzzle (which I doubt very much), true believers will continue believing in Christ and will continue spreading the gospel because Christ will eventually return. And Harold Camping will continue studying scriptures to try to get more clues from the Bible. He is still a Christian and a good teacher, and true believers will not reject him. True believers are not “Campingites” or “followers of Harold Camping” or “slaves of Harold Camping” or “brainwashed”. True believers are followers of Jesus Christ and followers of Christ’s Words, which are God’s Words. And true believers understand that no human being is perfect, and everyone makes mistakes, and the person who makes mistakes should not be rejected. True believers don’t just blindly follow any teacher. True believers check out the Scriptures for themselves to verify interpretations, and if there are things in the Bible that they don’t understand, it doesn’t mean they are in danger of losing their salvation. Just because Mr. Camping has misunderstood some scriptures, it doesn’t mean he is a false teacher who is causing true believers to go astray. That’s not possible. True believers can never lose their salvation. In my opinion, Mr. Camping is the best Bible teacher ever.

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  12. Hey Anonymous, while since teachers are human, we/they make mistakes, we are not talking about a minor error.

    Putting a date on Christ's return puts him squarely in the "false prophet" camp. By clearly ignoring Jesus' words that NO ONE knows the date or hour, Camping proves himself to be a very bad teacher...

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  13. Remember Camping is not selling anything on the radio to make money.
    Camping is the only radio preacher not interested in your money, yet you hate him?? I guess you would rather have skirt chasing, business man marketing preacher...That you may understand!
    Family radio was always free to the listerners.
    What has he to gain by sticking his neck out like this???
    If the end comes, he is off and if the end does not come he is off. He is doing this because he truly believes God is using him for this message. What does he have to gain? I don;t have the kind of courage he has. Just think what he is putting out there.
    I remember the professors in Seminary telling us that the Genelogies in the Bible are only important to trace the line of the prophets. They discounted the actually life spans. Think of it, It would take an engineer to learn the significance of the numbers so God could give us a warning of the actually end.
    Whether he is right of wrong we will know it in less than 4 months.
    But, you have to ask yourself, look at the state of the world. That is more scary than judgment day. What the heck is going to happen to us if May 21, 2011 does not happen.

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  14. The people are led by their own violence, lust and greed and sinfullness. Just see what is on televison and learn what people desire. There is nothing wholesome or Godly left in their desires, that is why the end is near!!

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  15. Sooner or later one of these predictions has got to be right! You sound like you are saying that the world will never end! Look at the world today. How would you fix it?
    The world is in such a mess our only hope is God's return. You who don't want him to return, ask yourself: Who is going to help the world. The world is truly beyond any human help. No jobs, no money, no future. Governments around the world in unrest! Greed and violence and vice has already destroyed our world. Now our only salvation is the Lord's intervention.

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  16. @ReverendFred@ if you read the Bible, we've actually been living in the "end days" for over 2,000 years now. And if you read the history books, you'll find that things were just as bad (if not worse) around the time when the Roman Empire fell. Where do you think the custom of living in a monastery came from? Things were so bad that Christians literally ran to the hills (or desert in their case).

    Just because a preacher isn't interested in your money doesn't make him right. The measure of truth is whether or not he speaks the truth. Unfortunately, for Camping, the Bible clearly tells us that no man knows the hour or the day when Jesus will return.

    Also, if I recall correctly, the other problem with Camping is that he preaches a form of salvation by works.

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  17. hey everyone, well soon know whether or not Camping is a false prophet. he says that jesus will return on may 26. mark your calendars. on that day we'll see camping for who he really is. jesus said NO ONE knows the day or the hour.

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  18. May 21, 2011 will come and go without incident. I'm more interested in the damage control that Camping will do starting on May 22. Should be interesting. As far as James White, both he and camping are Calvinists. Neither of them have a true knowledge of Jesus Christ.

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  19. It's Friday, Friday. Gotta get down on Friday. Everybody's lookin' forward to the rapture, rapture!

    ;)

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  20. P.S. Whatever happened to the good ol' "the world's going to end in 2012 because of the Mayans" theory?

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  21. Every religion is crap and nonsense but it is a crap and nonsense that has had a very long time to perfect itself and is therefore a very dangerous crap and nonsense, therefore, it should be regarded as toxic and handled as a dangerous substance would be.

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  22. i like your blog when is the next one??

    http://joeymax-stayathomedad.blogspot.com/

    check me out if you want to laugh your ass off

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  23. Haroldtards:
    Followers and believers in Harold Camping’s prophecy’s.

    ReplyDelete

Watch ILLUMINATI UNDER INVESTIGATION with Shepard Steel!!!!

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